As I woman who has had two careers in very male-dominated environments (electronic engineering and web development), I have to say I’ve never felt comfortable with the idea of ghetto-ising women. I’m fortunate to always have been treated equally by my peers.

I have attended one Girl Geek Dinner. It started off OK, but fairly quickly degenerated into a “let’s bash blokes” whining session. So I left, hoofed it round the corner to Pub Standards (I’m a regular there too) and have never been back since.

I’m with Frances on the side of attending the mainstream Geek events (where I’ve never felt out of place or belittled) and think that’s a much better way of getting more women involved.

Ok - I’ll admit that is a fairly inflammatory way of putting it, but the sentiment is true: ‘Geeky’ guys are often the ones who miss out on the early social interaction with girls during their formative years because of prejudice and peer pressure. Why should it be that guys who now have no social skills when it comes to dealing with women are seen as aloof, sexist, ignorant, etc. when the reality is they’re probably just inept at talking to girls?

I’m not making excuses for the sexism or misogyny that I’m sure some of my fellow techies exhibit, nor am I trying to say everybody who works in IT is socially inept. However, i’ve seen firsthand how ‘geeks’ are treated by their peers and how they’re portrayed by the media - is it any wonder that these people grow up with some warped views when it comes to social interaction with women?

If women in IT want to be treated as equals to their male peers, why would she vilify these same men? Why set up a regular event which shuts men out? This type of behaviour appears designed to draw attention to itself through controversy rather than addressing the underlying issue: that everyone should treat each other alike, and gender should be irrelevant. That is what is destructive.

Also, whilst you have stated that you are a guy, called Andy, your language and tone in your original post are very much from the perspective of a woman; either that or you’re exceedingly empathetic; an extremely unusual trait in a developer (usually they’re more likely to be practically Aspergian). That being the case, is it any wonder that people muse as to your true identity?

Your comments about web development being non-technical are also hopelessly uninformed; to suggest that this (very deep and still evolving) field is only technical when you’re writing something in a programming language is quite simply wrong.

If you were to better the tech community how would you do it? I think maybe that’s the question that should be put forward. Like you I disagree with some of what was written in the guardian. I’m not saying that groups for women are right or wrong, or that there aren’t technical women out there. You see them all over the industry. And as you rightly say you can be technical and work in web dev etc. And yes I have mis-represented the tech industry a little by assuming all but meaning .net dev. Thank you for pointing it out. I won’t make the same mistake again! (I think I’ve been royally told off for that!)

What is it that you see as damaging and what would you want to see that is positive… From what I can see Sarah has been doing something that builds a community where there wasn’t one. But maybe I’m missing something since I’m a guy.

Also have you let her know that you see what she is doing as destructive? Have you suggested to her what you think she should be conveying to the general public? Maybe a more adult approach should be taken to this and for someone to tell her what is being talked about in the public domain. I don’t know her so I don’t think it would be my place to bring this forward as I don’t know if you even know one another. But what about it? Forget public arguments over this one female. Why not talk to her? Or figure out some positive way of turning these things around?

I don’t see any overreactions here. The overreactions are in the initial Guardian article and Sarah Blow’s statements and actions. I (and I guess others here) actually really care about the issues and there’s a reason these issues are being raised - it’s because there are those who believe the things being said and the way they’re being said are not only unhelpful but destructive.

You say don’t make gender assumptions, but you explicitly assume I’m a man! My gender actually has no relevance to what I said, by the way.

My assumption that you were Sarah Blow actually had nothing to do with gender - it was based on the points you raised and the style in which you raised them.

You (similarly to Sarah Blow, funnily enough) don’t seem to appreciate the web side (or any other sides) of the industry at all. If your/her experience is in the .net world, then, to start (and by that I mean I still believe the points are OTT), relate your points directly to that. Not IT, not technology, not the whole universe.

You’re right - we’re all entitled to our opinions - and mine (and many others) is that the Guardian article, and many of the fundamental points Sarah Blow is preaching, are doing more harm than good.

I think I should have clarified that earlier. I’m not Sarah, I’m a guy, Andy… I’m 29 and a .net developer for a large corporate and I’m not going to say more than that! I would have expected better from other men and I’m actually quite shocked at the assumptions that “another geek” made there!

I happened to fall across this site when I was looking at some stuff over on Technorati… Who knows how I fell across it but I’m beginning to wish I hadn’t got involved in the conversation.

In terms of action required and what people could do positively to improve things:
- Not over react to points of view.
- Treat people as you expect to be treated yourselves
- Don’t make assumptions on gender based on who converses where online.

For those of you interested in other conversations with the C9 guys about women and technology then you might find this forum conversation interesting:
http://channel9.msdn.com/forums/Coffeehouse/261632-Microsoft-not-doing-enough-to-encourge-females/

I like how you’re saying that men dismiss women in the industry and this is awful.

Then you say “web stuff” isn’t technical.

I did a JavaScript presentation at barcamp.
I also attended presentations on IE bugs (hosted by a female), Google app engine (building an app using it & django), code reviewing, and html5 (hosted by a female).

These are technical and “web stuff”.

Your hypocrisy astounds me. If you’re wanting to rid the world of ignorance, arrogance, stereotyping & snap judgements… I’d start closer to home.